I need a counter argument to this

[BandGuy76]

I realize this post is more than slightly inflammatory and may appear trollish, but I’m honestly looking for someone to poke some serious holes in this idea cooking in my brain. Please read to the end of it before mounting a crusade for my head on a pike.

I have a theory about women. I think they can be the most selfish beings to men on the planet next to helpless infants. In my experience, they seem to be giant black holes of need, be it physical, emotional or mental. There is a definite purpose to this need, which will be explained later. For now, I’m going to give examples.

Physical- Let’s look at our plumbing folks. Men are built to give. Women are built to receive. (I suppose it could be the other way around, but I’m talking strait regular sex). I’ve asked many of my friends this and the answer averages out to be the same: When you fantasize, do you dream of touching or being touched? Men almost universally say they dream about touching a woman while women say the opposite, which they fantasize, about being touched.

I’ve also observed that women get irritated if they have to initiate sex a majority of the time. They seem to often complain that the man doesn’t take enough notice of them and that they want to feel loved and beautiful. When it comes to men, I don’t hear any of these complaints, but I do hear much boasting and more than a few grins when we get together and find out someone’s g/f took the initiative.

Emotional: From the women that I’ve spoken to, all mentioned that it was very important to critical that the words “I love you” be restated to reassure her of how he feels. When I’ve spoken to my male friends, they tend to say that “once said, always known” is an accurate description of how they feel.

Holidays are another emotional flash point. Case in point, Birthdays. Who would end up more hurt if they didn’t receive a present on that day? (Not, who would not be hurt, but who would be MORE hurt). My mother made my father’s life pretty miserable for a month when he didn’t get her anything. When she didn’t get him anything for his birthday, he kinda shrugged and went on with life. (Made her madder than hell that he did that too)

Try getting her to pay for the meal on the first date and see how many dates you have with her from here on out.

Mental- Women seem to want men that are intellectually stimulating. I’ve heard from many of my friends that they dumped a guy because he was boring her to death. I can’t actually think of one guy that dumped a girl because she was boring. (Plenty of other stupid reasons, but not that one)


So, what do women do with all this stuff that guys give them? Security, protection, emotional stability, sexual satisfaction? I think the answer is fairly simple. They direct that energy to their children. I heard a quote once “As a husband, I expect to come in a distant 3rd in my wife’s life. 1st is the children, 2nd is her family” I’ve seen women in my life practically sacrifice everything they have so that their children will thrive, whereas men are less likely to do so (I’m sad to admit)

Now, I’m not saying that women don’t know how to give to their men. I am trying to point out that women’s expectations of what men are suppose to give verses what women are suppose to give are more than slightly off balance.

So, I postulate that perhaps some of the unhappiness that women experience when they are in relationships could be the result of expectations not being met. Now, are these expectations too high?

[crjames]

Very interesting points and analysis - much of what you said (in terms of your theory) I agree with...

There are many unique differences between men and women obviously, but I do not believe that they are more selfish...(according to my existing potenially flawed perception)

Within all women, there are a certain percentage that are extremely selfish - but non-unilaterally there are a certain percentage of men that are selfish...

To me, many women are wishy-washy, uncertain and indecisive. And as a result that have sharp, transient fluctuations in emotional states....

So they tend to want/crave emotional reassurance more as a result.

Like my girlfriend wants me to tell her that I love her 50 times a day!

In the case with your mother, my mother, my girlfriend, women here and women there, they tend to have high expectations, because they are craving this reassurance...

It's not the item/gift that they crave (or get dissapointed about), it's the feeling of what they think it must "mean" if the guy neglects to get the gift for them...(99% of the time they are wrong)

Many women are emotionally selfish. So in other words - they want the item/gift/event because they really want the selfish feelings of feeling important even though they know the guy cares for them...

They just want to feel special or like a princess -as if they are queen of the universe...

Women and men that tend to have high expections of other people tend to be more on the selfish-side of the spectrum...

BUT if their outlook is "off" or if their self-esteem is low or if they are flat-out delusional, they will tend to have higher expectations as a result of not seeing the "real picture"....

They'll end up throwing counter-punches back at the guy who was never boxing in the first place...

[BandGuy76]

Cool, I'm not alone in this observation. Now, here is the kicker. Why do they do this? Is this emotional need some complex psychological adjustment? Is it based on hormone levels? Is it learned behavior?

Perhaps a better question is, "what does it get them?". Is there some payoff for them having thier expectations not met? I can't imagine it would be benefical to psychological makeup to live life in constant disapointment.

Can't say that I've ever understood women, just that I was attracted to them, God knows why. :)

[sitetutor]

:ghost: "was attracted"? :confused: Don't let them turn you gay, bro ;)

[Miss Direction]

Men and women are human identities that are simailar, yet different. Our biological make-up is different from the other. Men THINK in logical terms, and women FEEL with their emotions. Men are direct, where women are often indirect.

You have to understand that women are emotional creatures and completely different from men in that aspect. In addition, you can thank the feminist movement for women over the past 20 years keep pushing to be like men, yet want to be treated like a "lady". This coming from an illogical creature, sounds far-fetched doesn't it....well, it's the truth. Women are completely self-centered and always think they need to be #1 in your life. They also want a man that's "in touch" with his feelings, yet when a man tries to "open up", she runs like hell. THis is why women don't understand that THEY are the emotional beings. In order to keep your woman, you have to be stone cold. They don't need another "girlfriend" to gossip and "share feelings" with.

Today's women are more selfish and manipulative than ever. A man will and is often taken to the cleaners come divorce time just because a woman can. You see more men now than ever against marriage for this very reason. If a woman isn't getting her way, she'll pout till she does. Sit around a table of married women, if one dares to say one good thing about her husband, the other's will pause for a second, then another will chime in with more bashing. Women are horrible gossipers and most of the time spend their time uselessly running their husbands/SO's through the mud. Women always have been quick to pull the trigger on automatically making something the man's fault other than her own. Women occasionaly need to be put in their place to keep things in check.

Another point you must remember is when dealing with women, the reason why their so indecisive is because they are lead by their feelings. They "feel" things out. On the same note, most women constantly need a shot of drama in order to make sure things are running smoothly. There are some that take that over the line though, we call them "attention whores" and "drama queens". Games and tatics along with brainwashing their men is just a few ways they accomplish this. Your job as a man is to not tolorate such behavior.

On the lines of finding women to date, actions speak louder than words. Many seem to think they can have their cake and eat it too. Go around...ask some women what are the top five things important to you when marrying a man. I think you'll be surprised where the very words "I have to be in love with him/we need love" fall into the list if it does at all. When you hear the jokes about money not being an attraction magnet, it's no joke.

They need to "click" with that other person. And while many use the term "chemistry", they totally misuse the word. When you get along with somebody, it's just that. "Chemistry" has to do with the sexual attraction between two people. Women like to think of "Oh...we have such great chemistry together" because their too stupid to realize that a woman can never tell in logical terms why she's attracted to a man. She may be able to tell you what's attractive about him, but never why's she's attracted to him. She'll usually say..."Oh, it's just something about him.". LOL! Women only use "chemistry" because it's an alibi for finding a logical term to define their illogical behavior and feelings. Now what sense does that make?

Men are turned on and aroused visually, while women are based upon personality.

There's a lot more that I could say, and believe it or not...this is the truth. On the flip-side, there are some "good women" out there, but good luck finding them. Take for example in the Seduction forum (can't remember her name) claiming men are "stupid" and she feels no reprocussions for cheating. She just automatically thinks "all guys do it". This is how many women think, and it's sad.... (It's under the "How do I stop cheating? thread.)

If you want some valuable insight in regards to how many women work now-a-days and how to keep your manhood, visit w w w . a $ k m e n . c o m. You can also sign up for David D e A n g e l o 's newsletter to be delievered to your e-mail.

It would be a safe assumption that today's generation of men have and will continue to get the shaft. Don't settle for any less that what you believe you're entitled to. You give a woman no boundries, and she'll take you for an emotional rollar-coaster ride.

Oh...and for all the ladies that say "I'm not like that", why are you single and why are you always the dumper? Usually when a woman dumps a man it's for her own selfish reasoning (which is illogical anyway) and the guy has done nothing wrong. It's just that she treats men like shoes and is now wants to "try on" another one (meaning she's attracted to another). She's "dating up" and looking for the BBD (Bigger, Better, Deal). I've had it happen to me before and many other men have as well. Plus, if a woman's "breaking up" with you, you can bet your bottom dollar that she's got another man all lined up. Many women are monkies swinging from guy to guy. The more a woman wants you to reassure her that she's "the one", give me all that much more reason to dump her. The more a woman wants, the more insecure she is as a person. It's a catch 22, yet women feel no remorse or guilt for doing this to men. The thought of actually being single for more than one day is frightening beyond belief to most women. The only reason women give you the "It's not you, it's me", etc. line is just so they won't feel guilty for their own selfish greed.

Have I been hurt in the past? Yes. Is this the truth? Look around you and tell me this isn't going on in the real world. Study some psychology and human behavior....I think you'll be shocked at women. I'm not saying that men are perfect by any means, but women keep complaining that there's problems, etc....yet, it's always them stirring up useless drama when there never was a problem to begin with. If women want change, it's gotta start with them and somebody should be taking a long, hard look into the mirro. NEVER be afraid to call a woman on her crap.

A wise man once told me: "Women are basically fu(ked up in the head until the age of 25." I hold this to be fairly accurate.

There's so much more to discuss, we could go into the "bad boys", etc. theories, but I'm tired of driving home a point that will get nowhere. I am opinionated and speak for what I believe in. Many other men are doing the same......

Later......

[BandGuy76]

You know, it's nice to be able to discuss things on a webboard like this. I've tried to have this conversation with women in real time and either they argue thier way out of it or they don't listen.

I do think you're right, Miss Direction, when you state that women will often claim "I'm not like that" when they really are. But, I tend to see that as a more humanistic failing than one of just a spesific gender type. I think it is in the human nature to ignore our failings and feel insulted when they are pointed out to us.

I still don't know WHY they act in such a manner though. I've thought the "child" theory through and it only holds water if the woman is preparing to have children or wants to have them. I do realize that nature will create selfish people of both sexes. I've run into more than my fair share of selfish men and now that I think about it, I'm not sure I want use the worse selfish to describe what they do.

I do think that if we as men acted emotionaly needy as a large percentage of women do, we would quickly not have dates. I've tried empathizing with girls I was interested in, only to have them throw me quickly into the "Friend Zone" of which there is very little possiblity of escape.

For any ladies reading this, it's time for a heads up. You wanted more eomtionaly avalible, sensetive guys to listen to you. Now you have them. It's time to do a bit of changing yourselves and be willing to take a bit more of the lead in the relationship.

I think men are tired of always being the strong silent type. It's not a very satisfying place to be. However, it seems that women are always attracted to that type. Do women really want us to manipulate them, giving only parcels of information to keep their hunger wetted? Personaly, I'd rather have a wife who accepted what I gave rather than one who seems interested in it until a better deal comes along.

As for being gay, I highly doubt that. The feminine form is very intriguing to me. I just am seeing less and less benefit in the emotional side of the relationship the longer I know most of my female friends.

[Miss Direction]

>>>>>I do think you're right, Miss Direction, when you state that women will often claim "I'm not like that" when they really are.

Yep....
It's pretty much women here.
Women will say they want a "nice guy", but it's not what they respond to. Attraction makes them do otherwise and their illogical in that way.


>>>>I still don't know WHY they act in such a manner though.

Dude...
What did I just say?!
MEN think LOGICALLY, WOMEN act/react/think with FEELING. Women are emotional creatures. This is why they thrive the drama, the headaches, the attention, etc...men don't need that. Women themselves are a headache, the sooner you realize this the better.

>>>>I do think that if we as men acted emotionaly needy as a large percentage of women do, we would quickly not have dates.

Well, duh!
The expectations a woman has on "her man" can and often is unrealistic. Most women walk this earth thinking their twat is made of gold and nothing is better. Women are mostly attracted to masculine quantities....women are emotional creatures. This is why women like being put in their place from time to time. It also explains the "bad boy" theory.


>>>>>I've tried empathizing with girls I was interested in, only to have them throw me quickly into the "Friend Zone" of which there is very little possiblity of escape.

That's because you tried to communicate with her in role of "feeling", that made her little ATTRACTION switch go to the "off" position.

>>>>>You wanted more eomtionaly avalible, sensetive guys to listen to you. Now you have them. It's time to do a bit of changing yourselves and be willing to take a bit more of the lead in the relationship.

Heh, good luck man.
The day a woman thinks she's wrong and is going to change for men is the day that we see the end to all the world's problems.

Not likely to be anytime soon.......

[sitetutor]

my question is this:
do women think they are always right or just pretend to because they are pissed off. Can a femaly please answer this!

Thanks

[Miss Direction]

>>>>>>my question is this:
do women think they are always right or just pretend to because they are pissed off. Can a femaly please answer this!


I'm not a female, but I will answer it.

In order to understand what's really going on, you have to understand how women work.

Notice I didn't say "understand women", that's never going to happen.

When a man speaks, it's direct. With a woman, she's indirect. EVERYTHING she "says" comes from "feelings", EVERYTHING a man says registars from a "logical" standpoint.

Please keep in mind that when you are arguing with a woman, 9 times out of 10 you will never win because she's not "thinking". It doesn't matter if you're right or not. A good woman will only argue or throw a fit when something from the past wasn't resolved and you continue to do it. A bad women will reach to the past and find something so she can use it as "leverage" when she knows she's loosing.

Women unleash and pick fights/nag because their emotions are doing the talking. Sometimes women say stuff that they don't mean, but it's their feelings doing the talking like I said. A lot of women just do it so you'll pay attention to them....they need the constant drama in their lives, what can you say?

Don't get me wrong, women will be women and this is a good thing. On the same note, in no way do I think women are "bad" or "evil", just that they have changed (most anyway) as a gender with the times. There are a bunch of guys that need their head banged into a wall as well, for there is an over-abundance of a$$holes running a muck as well. But once you realize men and women are different, and why we are different, you will have better luck in the dating game.

[dewshine]

Thank you Miss D for stating that there are exceptions to the rule. Women can't all be put all in the same category. The same goes for men.

[BandGuy76]

Point well taken, Dewshine. I think I'm also primarly directing this post to the feminie persuasion age 25 and younger. Age has a real sobering effect on men and women and I think tends to act as the great equalizer when it comes to relationships. Once we find someone who has "been there, done that" with what ever sterotypes repel us the most, relationships tend to balance out.

As for Miss Direction, I do agree that females tend to think emotionaly while men tend to use logic for problem solving. But why? What does this get us? Why would members of the same species use almost polar opposite methods of problem solving. What is the payoff for women to use emotional rationalizations to satisfy thier needs? Why don't men use that? Why is there such a large divide in the way that men and women process need based requirments in thier life?

I realize there are benefits and drawbacks to both methods, but when do we get to a point where we as a human race begin to use both?

Are we even capable of doing that in our repective sexes?

[dewshine]

I call the difference the "estrogen factor" I think...and I'm no scientist...that it has to do with hormones and the gender roles used in raising children.

There are some of us that are capable of thinking logically though, I, on occasion am capable of seeing things how a typical guy would. I may not understand it completely but I can see it.

Hope this helps.

[Miss Direction]

BandGuy76.......
Why do you keep insisting that there is some "middle ground" between men and women?!

THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!!!!!
WE ARE BIOLOGICALLY MADE UP DIFFERENTLY!!!!

Men are "logical" and women are "illogical". It's how we are MADE, it's our DEFAULT and how we're HARD-WIRED. Sure a woman can say 2+2 = 4, but when it comes to dealing with MEN, and as you know ATTRACTION is ILLOGICAL, it all begins to make sense. Women think with their feelings before their brain, it's common sense....and attraction is illogical.

Either you "get it", or you "don't". It's not that hard. You are over-analyzing this wayyyy too much. Perhaps you should really study some psychology from the get-go, that will help you out.

[BandGuy76]

I'm completely willing to accept the fact that there may be no middle ground between the sexes. If we are hard wired to be the way we are, then that's the way it is.

I want to know why. If we are hard-wired to act in such a manner to solve problems, there should be some evolutionary benefit of doing so. What benefit would women receive from putting emotional needs higher than men? Is it used to nuture and protect the family stability? To contiue the process of civilization beyond simple appeasement of physical concerns?

Or, is this learned behavior? Does this behavior of the sexes trancend instinctual urges? Do some women think more literaly when it comes to problem solving and some men more emotionaly?

And yes, I've often been accused of over-analyzing. Oh well:) I like to ask questions.

[crjames]

bandguy, there is nothing wrong with over-analyzing especially when you crave the answer...

and if we really analyzed or over-analyzed the process of over-analyzing we would quickly realize that it is an impossible process...

at any rate, i think women spend most of the time on the emotional side of the emotional/logical spectrum (if we agree that such a spectrum exists)...

and i would say the reason is just what you said - to care and be norturing to their young - the emotional develop of children/people is very important...

and women provide this...

when you get sick it feels good to have a woman (mother, wife or gf) take care of you...

i think the important thing is not to mesh and merge the emotional component that is highly visible in all women with the wishy-washy bratty princess-syndrone females with high expectations that exist delusionally in fairy-tale land...

there's a difference...

to me, these girls are corrupted in some way - kinda like a bad CD that skips. they are not normal...

it could be from not having a father or anything that gives her a feeling of low self worth...

whenever a man deals with a woman with self esteem issues (regardless of what created it), he will be dealing with a woman with high expectations (or a false/unreal sense of what she deserves)...

she becomes upset easily because she is always "doing things" on some level of consciousness that makes the guy have to "do something" to prove himself...

because she wants to feel important. she wants to feel important b/c she doesn't truly feel important. when someone thinks/knows they are important, they are not likely to have the desire to feel important.

if a person is full, he will not seek food...(normally)

in the real world, a guy doesn't deserve that nonsense with such females and should quickly look elsewhere (until she becomes normal)

these women aren't seeking the balance & fairness in the relationship (as advertised). they are looking CONSTANTLY for anything the guy can do to make THEM feel special...

and in some cases the balance and fairness is thinly disguised selfishness more so than it is the product of an emotional void...

so by the analogy, she is full and yet she keeps eating... in other words she gets a kick or a "high" from the feelings associated with feeling important...

these type of women will drive a guy crazy.

a city with enough of these women can support 10 times as many liquor stores as the average city!

[BandGuy76]

I totaly dig the idea of eating too much. Maybe the crowd I've been with has been leaning too much on the over-emotional side.


I think I'm going to start a post on male emotional stuff now. Thanks for the dialoge everyone!

[oneeyemonkeypie]

I don't believe it's a function of genetic makeup or evolution, but rather one of environment and surroundings. 10,000 years ago (nothing in terms of evolutionary scales) an overly emotional female would have been a detriment to her community. It is doubtful that they would have proliferated to the extent they do today. I believe that since women were relegated to the role of child rearing since recorded history they developed a certain need for socializing, seeing how they are housbound much of the time. Thats where gossiping started. The whole emotional thing probably also has something to do with the isolation from society they often faced while in the home. Sure they went out, but they didn't get the social exposure of, say, someone in the workforce. Now that physical fitness is no longer a factor in survival, women never needed to "unlearn" their overly-emotional tendencies and they became ingrained in modern society, passed from one generation to the next. If you visit a war-torn country and find a girl who has been fighting for her life ever since she was born, I can guarantee you she won't be overly emotional. in reference to Miss Direction , she'd be logical and calculating, just like he thinks men are.

[nathan]

Did you survey the entire population? Ask everyone about men being logical and women illogical? I have never heard a more generalised statement in my life. Nothing in life is ever that clean cut. "All women are illogical". Granted, we are genetically different, but you can't honestly put all women in one sole category of being illogical. Both genders have moments of being logical and illogical.




When a man speaks, it's direct. With a woman, she's indirect. EVERYTHING she "says" comes from "feelings", EVERYTHING a man says registars from a "logical" standpoint.



What a gross misconception, are you trying to say males are incapable of expressing emotion? This is wrong, no wonder males have so much trouble expressing their true feelings. We live in a world where males are expected to be "logical" and not express emotion in what they are saying. That is possibly the worst and most idiotic thing I have ever heard.

I am thankful that in fact we live in a changing world, a changing world where males are permitted to express themselves emotionally. The more people keep saying males are logical and females are illogical the harder it is for the genders to change. I am honestly dumb-founded at the fact someone could put two things as complicated as males and females into two clear cut categories labelled "logical" and "illogical".

Nothing in life is ever that black and white.

Nathan



My Dad is forever telling me; "Attention ! Attention ! Les femmes grignotent à nous !"

[Miss Direction]

Nathan...
I'm a psych. major and there are studies that have been done on this.

When I say "all" women, I mean that in dealing with dating/love/relationships. Sure a woman can add two and two together to equal four, but when it comes to sexual attraction, it's a whole different ball game.

Women are NOT "attracted" to a man who shows feelings, or is overly-emotional. They are the ones that are like that, not us.....women seek and are drawn to masculinity.

Study some psychology, live in reality....then try telling me what you just said. I think you'll be singing a different tune not long after......

[nathan]

Explain me this then...

Why are women forever saying; "All the great guys are gay". To me, I would say that a lot of women are drawn to a guy who can show emotions. Please tell me that women are not drawn to emotional males.

[Miss Direction]

You need more help than what I can give you nathan.

[reckless99]

great discussion

through a few relationships and lots of psych classes, I still had a minimal understanding of the female thinking process until I spent a couple hrs at the local library skimming some feminism books.

it really put things into perspective for me with regards to their emotional nature. and it was a great paradigm shift cause I actually began to respect women for what they are.

I read a parable once, it went something like this: a woman is made from a curved rib. take caution in trying to straighten her becuase she will break.